Enlighten Me

Rodney Crouther:
Hey, this is Rodney Crouther.

Eddie Sanchez:
This is Eddie Sanchez.

Rodney Crouther:
And welcome to Enlighten Me. Hey, Eddie. It's March Madness time.

Eddie Sanchez:
Yep, a big topic. We've been talking about that around the office. We got my team's hopefully going all the way.

Rodney Crouther:
Yeah, my bracket's half-busted already, but it's also Women's History Month in March, and that got me thinking, we've got some great women's sports here at Texas State, and it seems like across the nation, women's sports has really been having a moment the last year or two.

Eddie Sanchez:
Yeah, our women's team here have been crushing it and nationally from TV ratings, social media growth, just general public interest, and all sorts of women's sports that's definitely been growing through the past few years.

Rodney Crouther:
Even watching games during the opening weekend of March Madness. I saw watching the commercials there are a lot more women athletes in the ads, like for Home Depot, for AT&T. Isn't that just-

Eddie Sanchez:
Yeah, we were talking about the Shaq commercials, right?

Rodney Crouther:
Yeah. With Sabrina Ionescu who competed in the men's three-point contest at the All-Star game last year.

Eddie Sanchez:
So I'm curious, Rodney, do you think we're witnessing a real shift in women's sports? Are they finally getting the attention they deserve?

Rodney Crouther:
I was wondering the same thing, Eddie. So that's why I think for this month I decided let's take a deep dive into women's sports and talk to some people on campus who have some perspective on where high-level women's sports has been and where we're going and what they think of the moment right now.

Eddie Sanchez:
Awesome. So who did you get a chance to talk to?

Rodney Crouther:
Well, I talked to the leader of one of our greatest athletic programs for anybody, our wonderful Bobcat Softball team. I talked to their longtime coach, Ricci Woodard.

Ricci Woodard:
Yes, Ricci Woodard. Been here at Texas State for 25 years now as the head softball coach.

Rodney Crouther:
25 years. How did you come to Texas State, or actually, let's take it a step back? How did you start off in sports?

Ricci Woodard:
Well, my dad was a coach, athletic director my whole life. Grew up in a small town, Carlsbad, New Mexico, played every sport pretty active, just never could find anything else I really wanted to do. So when I went to college, I said, "What do you want to do?" And I said, "Just want to play softball." So I said, "Well, you need a degree." So I got an education degree and used that for a few years and worked my way through the junior highs and high schools and into the college ranks, and this is where I've been for a long time now.

Rodney Crouther:
And how did you land on softball in particular?

Ricci Woodard:
Probably my size. Basketball was probably my first love at one point in my life but figured out pretty quickly that I was a little short about my sophomore, junior year of high school. I was like, "Yeah, I don't think this is going to be the sport for me." So then spent more time focusing on softball and really it's my passion now. I can't imagine doing anything else.

Rodney Crouther:
What was the culture like for girls in sports when you were growing up?

Ricci Woodard:
Yeah, it just wasn't talked about or addressed a whole lot. And I don't say this very often, but even where I lived it was the Cavemen and the Cavegirls. It's not like it was the Cavemen and the Cavewomen was our mascot. And so even when I think back to that, it kind of brings back the light of where women's sports were at the time for me.

Rodney Crouther:
Just even in the language, it was kind of put on a second tier. Among your peers, did girls that started off with you in sports stay in it coming up from middle school through high school and into college?

Ricci Woodard:
No, I mean I could probably name on less than one hand how many of my buddies played college athletics. It just wasn't the thing to do, and it was most of my buddies stayed at home and found a job and got married, and had kids. Really, when I think back at it, and now I think that that's not how life goes at all. It's still a small percentage of female and male athletes that played college sports, but it sure was very small then.

Rodney Crouther:
And what was the support like from the schools and the communities?

Ricci Woodard:
Well, I don't know that I even remember. I think that the high school you always, again, I grew up in a small town, so I always felt like we were pretty well-supported. I could be wrong looking back, but I feel like we were-

Rodney Crouther:
Yeah, I grew up in a small town and everybody came to the women's basketball games because I mean, we all know them in a small town.

Ricci Woodard:
Yeah. And I think that's part of it is everybody knew everybody and everybody kind of played all the sports, and so I never felt like we weren't supported.

Rodney Crouther:
What about once you moved into the college level? Was the disparity bigger between the men's sports and the women's sport and the community support there?

Ricci Woodard:
Probably not a whole lot. I went the junior college route at first, and then when I think about playing in New Mexico State, I don't remember a lot of disparity. I'm sure there was some, maybe it just wasn't talked about, and so we didn't notice it near as much. But when I look back now, I still think there probably is some disparity even now when I look at university softball programs versus baseball programs. So I'm sure there was when I was playing, but maybe I was so tuned into what I was doing I didn't notice it at that time like I do now.

Rodney Crouther:
Well, that's great you were that focused as a player. What about the transition to coaching? How was that for you? Like you said you wanted to stay in the sport. I guess there weren't a lot of other options to stay engaged with the sport once you were through with college.

Ricci Woodard:
Yeah, really, and maybe that's the disparity I didn't recognize is I just assumed that I would find a high school teaching job and coach high school softball for the rest of my life, to be honest. And so it kind of worked out where I was coaching some middle school, junior high things to begin with started the program at Brazosport High School, and to me, that kind of started opening my eyes.

Rodney Crouther:
Okay. So that was a school that didn't have a girls softball team before?

Ricci Woodard:
Correct. And we were playing on the little league T-ball field. I was putting the drag behind my truck and dragging the field myself, and I had to be off the field by 5:00 for the T-ball league to start. So now when I look back at those things, I'm like, "Okay, that is a clear sign that the guys were going to a baseball field and we were going to the city T-ball field to play when we started the program."

Rodney Crouther:
What about moving up to actually coaching Texas State? How did that career move come about?

Ricci Woodard:
Yeah, well, I actually got the call from a guy that I had played college ball for, Rick Gammas was the head coach. He'd just gotten the job at University of Oregon and I had been working camps for him while he was at New Mexico State still. And so he got the job and he's like, "Hey, I'd like you to come with me." And at first I was like, "There's no way I'm going to work more hours and get less pay than what I was already getting." So I was like, "I'm not doing that." And I actually called my brother and was talking through it with him. He was in college athletics at the time too, and he's my assistant now, but he was like, "Yes, you are. You need to go make this move because, in the long run, it'll pay off."

Eddie Sanchez:
So she was actually making less money as a college coach at the University of Oregon in comparison to a high school coach?

Ricci Woodard:
It did pay me less than I was making at a high school. Yes.

Eddie Sanchez:
Wow.

Ricci Woodard:
Yeah. And I was-

Rodney Crouther:
And not a small college at Oregon. University of Oregon.

Ricci Woodard:
Right. Correct.

Rodney Crouther:
Okay. That's a statement in and of itself.

Ricci Woodard:
Right. So I was like, "There's no way I can't go live off of that amount of money." And I ended up moving into an apartment with the other guy that was an assistant coach and we shared an apartment just to try to make ends meet. Now when I look back at things, I'm like, "Yeah, it's come a long ways." And when I was sitting in the middle of it, I don't know that I focused enough on probably the disparity and what needed to change to make women's sports and women's athletics be a little bit more appealing to everybody in the country.

Rodney Crouther:
That really struck me that Coach Woodard said that when she was in the early stages of her career, even though it was clearly unequal, it didn't really strike her as that odd then because it had just been that way for so long. It makes me think about how when things are just unbalanced like that, we can get conditioned to it and stop expecting it to be better, and it takes people like her to push the ball forward.

Eddie Sanchez:
I imagine it's even that much more challenging because not only is she having to deal with the coaching aspect and just that actual work aspect of it all, but there's also, well, I have to do things to improve the conditions for my players, for women's sports, it's an added level of responsibility almost. And so it's understandable also why somebody in that position might not necessarily see that disparity right away because I'm worrying about this big other thing over here and there's this other big thing I need to worry about, and I'm trying to balance those two out.

Rodney Crouther:
And even she said she wasn't the first, but she really took the lead of a lot of change here. I'll let her tell it.

Ricci Woodard:
25 years ago, I think everything was more focused on male sports. It just was, and I'm not trying to say that ugly. I'm not trying to be mean about what I took over at Texas State, but I don't think that the focus was on our facility, on our program. And I go back to the person that started the program, which was Pam Weisenberger, and the time that I've spent visiting with her and just getting to listen to her version of where Texas State softball's come and where it was when I got here. Our batting cages were asphalt. We didn't have any balls, we didn't have any nets. I started telling players, "Hey, if we're going to be any good, we're going to have to start fundraising." So we spent a lot of time chasing balls because I was like, "We need to fundraise for some nets where you guys don't have to chase the balls all the time." In the 25 years I've been here, I've seen a lot of changes and all for the positive.

Rodney Crouther:
Let's take a minute and brag a little bit about some of your highlights. The Bobcat Women's Softball has been just one of the power teams in the conference since you've been coach almost.

Ricci Woodard:
Yeah. I mean transitioning from the Southland to the Sun Belt was really tough and it took them making a commitment to giving us more money and a better facility. And I think that that's one of the things that I think Larry Teis did a good job about was building facilities and that helped.

Rodney Crouther:
Yeah. No, our ballpark is great. I've been in there. Y'all have a really nice facility to play in but-

Ricci Woodard:
Right. Yeah, especially when I think about what I took over 25 years ago.

Rodney Crouther:
But it's okay to brag on yourself a little bit. I mean, a lot of... When I look through the history of Texas State and athletics championships, softball has a few of them, quite a few of them.

Ricci Woodard:
I don't know how to accept anything but that, to be honest, my players would probably tell you past and present that I don't know how to accept mediocracy. And so here I am 25 years later, still sitting in the same chair, but still the same expectations that I had 25 years ago when I took over the program, to be honest.

Rodney Crouther:
How different is the outlook for opportunities to both play and be involved in the sport? How different is it for your young women now than it was for you?

Ricci Woodard:
Yeah, well, even just to say that two summers now, we've hosted a women's professional league on our own field. This past summer we had two different teams that used our field to play their home games with. So it's growing. It's got a long ways to go still, in my opinion, the way that league was even done this summer, there was a huge disparity in the top team and the bottom teams and the pay and everything and so I think it still has a long, long ways to go, but I think people are trying to push the bar.

Rodney Crouther:
Yeah, I've seen over the last decade, there've been a few attempts at trying to build a pro women's softball league. I know we've had some former Bobcat players that have signed with women's teams. Do you think as women's sports professionally, nationally, you're getting a higher profile with what's going on with the WNBA and women's soccer? Do you see more opportunities to build those leagues coming up?

Ricci Woodard:
I hope so. I'm not sure what the problem is in softball and why it hasn't taken off just because our College World Series has taken off. The game itself has taken off. My stands are full 90% of the time, and so I'm not sure why our women's professional sport has not taken off. I keep waiting and I don't know if I think this Athletes Unlimited is maybe going in the right direction. They're going to try to start a team organization this summer too, and I think they have a lot of the right people trying to help build that. So maybe that will help, but somewhere we got to all get on board in the same place and go the same direction with women's professional softball.

Rodney Crouther:
Some of the other sports are disproving the myth that fans won't pay to see women athletes perform because clearly there are a lot of people who will and are eager to.

Ricci Woodard:
My friend works for the Austin PD and she worked the professional or national team women's soccer game the other night up in Austin, and she said the place was packed. She said it was an awesome feeling and she's like, "This is what we need to keep creating for softball," because you're right, soccer, I think has kind of found their niche and a way to go about it well.

Rodney Crouther:
Do you think that's an opportunity to get some I guess cross promotional support from the leagues that are gaining some traction to start promoting other women's athletics? Other women's sports?

Ricci Woodard:
Yeah, I think we have to all be in this together. Soccer fought the fight first, and I think now they got to jump on the bandwagon, keep fighting for every other women's sports too. I think women's basketball is growing, everything's going in the right direction. It's how do we keep that momentum and keep carrying it over to other sports also?

Rodney Crouther:
How confident do you feel about this season? I'm just going to be a pure sports fan here. I'm looking forward to this season-

Ricci Woodard:
I hear you.

Rodney Crouther:
... of women's softball.

Ricci Woodard:
I'm looking forward to it too, to be honest. Yeah, I have 12 new players, which is crazy because last year I had zero. Pretty much we had all 21 returning and then we added five freshmen, but knew they probably didn't have to fit into the mix right away. And so you can almost call them new players this year too because they just didn't get a lot of experience last year with that group. We lost eight seniors that all contributed heavily to the program over the past three to four years. So it's going to be a growing process, but I picked up four good transfers with those eight freshmen, and I think it's going to be fun to watch.

Rodney Crouther:
Yeah, and that brings me to my next question actually. A lot of college sports news is about NIL and the transfer portal.

Eddie Sanchez:
Hey, Rodney so for our non-sports listeners, can you explain what the NIL means and also what the transfer portal is?

Rodney Crouther:
Yes. NIL is Name, Image, and Likeness is what that stands for. And it's basically the relatively new rule in college sports that allows the student-athletes to monetize, basically give their Name, Image, and Likeness. They can do endorsements and make contracts outside of the university, etc, without penalty. Also, the transfer portal is, in previous generations really until a few years ago, college athletes, if they wanted to transfer to another university and continue to play, they had to basically sit out a year unless both schools and the NCAA agreed to waive that restriction under some special circumstances. But coaches have always been able to go from one school to the other, and the student-athletes couldn't do that, and they have limited years of eligibility. So it was a pretty big deal, but it leveled the playing field and allowed them to take part in the multi-billion dollar industry of college sports.

Eddie Sanchez:
Thanks, Rodney. I'll let you guys get back to your conversation.

Rodney Crouther:
Is that starting to be more of a factor in women's sports too?

Ricci Woodard:
Yes. Yes, it is. And if we don't keep up, we're going to get left behind in a hurry. The transfer portals worked well for me in the past. I try not to use it a whole lot. I'll be honest. I'd rather have kids that are here for four years and we can build them, but I'm having to change my thought process now with the portal transfer and now you can transfer every year. And so as an old-school coach, that's taken me a while to get into that thought process, but I picked up two from A&M, one from LSU, and one from North Carolina. So I don't guess I could really complain about the transfer portal right now because it's going to serve us well right now.

Rodney Crouther:
Yeah, I guess it's kind of a double-edged thing.

Ricci Woodard:
It is.

Rodney Crouther:
A little more roster and stability, but the young women have more options just like athletes in other sports.

Ricci Woodard:
Right. And the NIL thing I mean, that's going to get crazier and crazier. So I'm not sure how we're going to keep up with that, but we've got to find some ways to find more people interested in supporting women's sports.

Rodney Crouther:
Have some of your players been able to find some opportunities there?

Ricci Woodard:
Yeah. A few in the past have done a lot of merchandise stuff and have found some of their own deals. I've been able to pick up a little bit here and there. Finally got my big first $25,000 donation this year to help us with some of that stuff, and he picked up four of my players that's helped a lot. So yeah, I think we're headed in the right direction, but we need a lot more support.

Rodney Crouther:
That's a good segue to shout out for our Bobcat athletic supporters. It's not just football here. There are a lot of teams you can support if you're looking to make a donation to support student-athletes.

Ricci Woodard:
For sure.

Rodney Crouther:
Thank you very much for coming in today and sharing your perspective. I can't wait to get out to a game this year and go Bobcats.

Ricci Woodard:
Hey, thanks for your passion for women's sports. I'm always about advocating for women's sports now. I feel like that's kind of, as I get older, maybe more of the calling just to go that route. But looking forward to having everybody come out and watch some Texas State softball, that's for sure.

Rodney Crouther:
Eddie, I loved getting to sit down with Coach Woodard. She's just an amazing coach, an amazing leader here. She really built this program, and if you're listening right after this episode drops, it's still softball season, go out and check out both our Bobcat baseball and softball teams.

Eddie Sanchez:
I haven't had a chance to go out there myself, but I've been hearing a ton of positive raves about attending, and so hopefully here in the next couple of weeks, I will get a chance to go out there and catch a game.

Rodney Crouther:
Oh yeah, our Bobcat parks are great. The crowd is really good. The vibe in the stadium is always live. It's a good time.

Eddie Sanchez:
Yeah. And I heard that they also have won a few of our conference belts, a few of our conference championships.

Rodney Crouther:
Oh yeah. No, our softball team, baseball, and softball have both brought home a lot of trophies, but softball especially, I think has more conference titles than any of our sports programs here.

Eddie Sanchez:
Oh, wow. I was not aware of that. That's pretty awesome.

Rodney Crouther:
Yeah, no, both in the Sun Belt and going back to the Southland Conference, like Bobcat Softball is a powerhouse program and always has been. Yeah, so that kind of talking about women getting more of the spotlight brought me to the next point I wanted to explore. Women are taking a bigger chunk of the spotlight in sports media and advertising.

Eddie Sanchez:
So I mean, the popularity of women's sports is growing in media, social media is playing a big part of that. Did you get a chance to talk to anybody about this growth in sports media?

Rodney Crouther:
Yeah, it turns out Texas State has an expert in sports media, Dr. Mike Devlin.

Dr. Mike Devlin:
Yeah, so I'm Professor Mike Devlin or Dr. Mike Devlin, Mike. I'm a professor here at Texas State University. I'm over in the School of Journalism and Mass Comm. I'm also the Regents' Teacher here at Texas State, and I'm happy to be here with you guys today.

Rodney Crouther:
Great. And what's your area of research?

Dr. Mike Devlin:
So I do a lot of... My focus is in sports media, but really what I look at is the identity, the sociology, and psychology of sports fans. So what draws people to sports, why they stick around, because obviously there's a big difference between being a fan of a book or a movie or Taylor Swift Eras concert, and then being a fan of your favorite team who may or not be winning or losing that season. So I'm really interested in what drives people to consume sport, which has unpredicted results and maintain loyalty, whether they win or they lose, there's a certain psychology. So that's where my focus is at.

Rodney Crouther:
I think we can all agree that the last year or so has been unprecedented with the hype around Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese in college basketball last season, all the women who brought home American gold during the Olympics. Are we just having a moment where women have kind of percolated to the top, or is this building on a wave of women's sports finally getting a bigger audience?

Dr. Mike Devlin:
I don't think this is a moment of women's success. I think it's finally a moment of women's acknowledgments of their success. I remember 1990, was it '94 or '96, the Olympics in Atlanta with Kerri Strug, right?

Rodney Crouther:
Yes, yes.

Dr. Mike Devlin:
And the fanfare that went around that U.S. National Gymnastics team, and again, we're working in a limited media environment, but I still remember being a young, I mean, gosh, I was 10 or 12 or whatever, and I still remember that vault.

Eddie Sanchez:
So I was alive during the Atlanta Olympics, but I really don't remember them too well nor do I remember Kerri Strug. Could you give me a little bit of her history?

Rodney Crouther:
Okay, yeah. Quickly.

TV announcer:
A 9.4, 9.3 we've had [inaudible 00:20:48]-

Rodney Crouther:
1996, Atlanta Olympics, the U.S. Women's Gymnastics team, "Magnificent Seven". They got the nickname. They did win gold, but the clincher for that team, gymnastics gold was a vault by Kerri Strug.

TV announcer:
For the USA, she's the last to go. She's the only one who can do it.

Rodney Crouther:
Who on her first vault had an awkward landing, hurt her ankle pretty bad.

TV announcer:
[crowd gasps] Oh! Three falls in a row for the Americans.

Speaker 7:
This is scary.

TV announcer:
Wait, she's limping.

Rodney Crouther:
And then had to do a second final vault on a bad ankle because the U.S. and I think Russia were neck and neck in points.

TV announcer:
She knows what to do, she will go and she is ready.

Rodney Crouther:
And she landed the second vault on a broken ankle.

Speaker 8:
Good. Come on. [crowd cheers]

Rodney Crouther:
Held it just long enough to get the points and then immediately collapsed to the mat.

TV announcer:
Kerri Strug is hurt. She is hurt badly. We have got to find out. She's a 9.712! She has done it! Kerri Strug has won the gold medal for the [inaudible 00:21:56]-

Rodney Crouther:
And her coach actually had to carry her to the medal ceremony because it was an iconic moment. Her teammates wouldn't go to the podium without her, even though she was getting medical attention on the side.

Eddie Sanchez:
Now I can see it, I don't know I must have seen some sort of video of it after the fact, but I totally remember that-

Rodney Crouther:
Oh, yeah, it was huge. I think they actually did it on King of the Hill. It was iconic.

TV announcer:
She's being carried off by two of the medical technicians.

Dr. Mike Devlin:
It was an impressive moment for not only the U.S., for the Olympics but for also women's sports. It got a lot of fanfare, but you see it sort of die off because the way the mainstream media works, it's one hot thing to the next. I think what we're seeing now is this world of media where there are niche audiences, there's the ability to follow. So once you gain traction or once you notice an impressable feat or you find an athlete whose performance on the field or off the field, what they do in activism, it allows you to follow that and maintain that relationship with them. So I wouldn't say it's a moment of we're finally seeing women do well in sports. We're finally getting to a moment where people are able to follow them and get around the mass media who's always moving to the next story, whether it's seasonal or not.

Rodney Crouther:
I also very clearly remember watching that vault, and I mean, I'm an Olympics junkie, but we are two straight men sitting here talking about women's sports. So it's a myth that only women watch women's sports.

Dr. Mike Devlin:
I'm fortunate enough to be in an environment where I get to work with really smart and intelligent women in the sports media world. I've met a ton of other my colleagues who have Ph.D.s in sport media, and I happen to be married to one of them. She's a tenured professor at UT. So we do see this growing interest, but we also see a lot of people who are not only looking at this just from a this is an interesting moment in time, but what does this say about society? So there are a ton of great scholars out there, and you're starting to see this in journalism as well. There's a lot of great women who are covering sports, not just women's, but men's sports.
So I think it's important that we take this moment to acknowledge that yes, we're men. We've traditionally been bucketed as the sports fan, but when you look at the NFL ratings, for example, 50% of their fans are women. So it really is a misnomer to try to say that sports is a men's field with only men fans. There's a lot of great people out there doing the work and watching.

Rodney Crouther:
You are seeing more women on the broadcasting side than we have traditionally. Is that helping build or I guess dismantle that idea that it is just a men's space?

Dr. Mike Devlin:
I don't have the data to back this up, so please feel free to chime in and correct but-

Rodney Crouther:
We'll note that this is just as an educated observer.

Dr. Mike Devlin:
This is, but it seems like there's been a lot of women who have been relegated to the sideline reporter roles, and you see people like Holly Rowe, she's a respected journalist. You saw Erin Andrews, respected journalist, and typically they were never in the broadcasting booth or the ESPN after-show. They're always on the sideline talking to the coaches, and that's the role that I think we've been familiar to see them with. I don't know if that's what they want to do or if it's a network decision. Again, I'm not in those rooms, but we don't see a lot of women as sports anchors. Even in your local broadcast, very rarely do you see a woman fulfilling the role of the sports news anchor. It's my hope that if they're qualified and they want to be behind the desk, great. If that's something that they like doing awesome.
Again, it's one of those areas that we're looking at of who's taking the jobs and how does that influence people. I'm surprised someone like Holly Rowe who has vast world experience. Is she not behind the anchor desk because she likes being on the field? Maybe she likes it great. Or is it because there are mechanisms that say, "Look, women are sidelined. We only want to see you on the sideline after games and we'll let men in suits cover all the news." I don't know about that, but it's one of those things that I think is worth looking at in terms of as we start developing the next future of sports journalists of not putting young women and saying-

Rodney Crouther:
Pigeonholing them into one or two roles.

Dr. Mike Devlin:
... "Yes, the best you're going to do, your goal should be to be a sideline reporter." Right? I think we don't want to give the image of that's the best you're going to do if they want to be the sports anchor or if they want to be behind the desk. And again, you see offshoots and you see shows, but primarily it's still a male-driven market. When you watch and listen to a lot of sports radio, sports news and you watch it, very rarely do you hear women behind the desk.

Rodney Crouther:
As you said, half the NFL fans are women. So clearly the knowledge isn't gender exclusive.

Dr. Mike Devlin:
Well, and I think there's also an error of, I do recall from Twitter, there have been women who've been broadcasters that were giving game development and I'm drawing a blank here of what the game was, and I don't even know if it was Tony Romo or who it was, but you have your color commentator, your in-game person, and it was the first time it was an NFL Monday night game. It was the first time that there was a woman who was calling the game, and the critiques were awful. When you got on social media, they were brutal. And it was like, "Y'all, have you not listened to the number of men who've come through here?" I think there's still going to be a level of sexism that exists and hopefully, we're moving beyond that but...

Rodney Crouther:
I have seen some reporting on the level of social media backlash and negative comments that women sportscasters get just for existing in the space.

Dr. Mike Devlin:
They do, and it's unfair and I think there's a lot of times where people are more critical of what they're saying. And again, I think there are a lot of male journalists who make the same types of mistakes, the same level of inaccuracy, and they get a bye.

Rodney Crouther:
Oh, absolutely. I yell at commentators every time I watch a game.

Dr. Mike Devlin:
Yeah. And that's a societal thing. And can we argue that it's improving? Hopefully, yes. The best thing that we can do on the education side is keep ensuring that all of our students are learning these same skill set. We're giving them the same level of confidence to go on and take these jobs and show the ability to perform at the highest level.

Eddie Sanchez:
Well, Rodney, it feels like people are more than willing to watch whatever sport is available to them regardless of gender. So I'm curious if this sort of opportunity is helping to dismantle those old stereotypes that men don't watch women's sports.

Dr. Mike Devlin:
Well, it kind of becomes that field of dreams. If you build that, they will come. And I think that there was always this idea that, well, time was finite. When you're talking about traditional media broadcast, and at the time when you're ESPN and you are trying to figure out in your 24-hour schedule, when are you going to cover games? You're going to go to where you know the money is, where advertising dollars are going to come from, and where the market's at. So you're not going to get a lot of attention too at that point, the WNBA for example. The argument is, well, if we air it, they will come, but if we don't air... So it's this kind of chicken and the egg conundrum.
But look, for example, Paramount Plus they did a partnership with the NWSL, the National Women's Soccer League, and that had the highest ratings for sports coverage. So we're starting to see that yes, time is finite, networks have to go to where they think the best audience as they're going to be, but there's opportunities now that we're becoming more niche and we have a lot of different streaming platforms that if they air it, they will come because there are young people who want to watch this sport.

Rodney Crouther:
So does that sound like the media gatekeepers, like the companies like Paramount Plus doing the deal, are they waking up to the fact that there is money to be made here by airing women's sports?

Dr. Mike Devlin:
I don't want to speak on behalf of them and whether they were waking up or it was a good real estate for them to buy because a lot of the major men's sports were already bought up. So did they buy property that they could get low and potentially sell high to advertising? I don't know what those decisions were, but we are seeing evidence that yes, if it is aired, people will come to it. And because we're getting into this niche market. I remember being in college, there was no such thing as the Golf Network. A lot of people did not watch golf, and then you had a star like Tiger Woods.
It propelled an audience to start becoming engaged and activated. So then they started dedicating time to putting on golf, and then you start getting other networks that are getting those niche tournaments of can we capitalize on this audience engagement? And now that we're not just stuck to traditional broadcast or cable of just the power two or power three, now you're able to see these people like Paramount Plus partner up, you're able to see Hulu partner with these networks. And if it's on, I do believe that sport, if it's on television, people will come.
And again, we were always limited by time. Now time is almost in the new media landscape because of technology it's infinite. Now we are always going to watch sports in real time. It's one of those driving factors, but there needs to be a space, and I think we're starting to see that space being provided for men and women's sports and also for whether it's a sport that's a super niche sport like swimming and rowing or a major sport like football.

Rodney Crouther:
Right. Certainly some sports generally only dominate the media cycle like Olympics every, well, two years now-

Dr. Mike Devlin:
Two years, right.

Rodney Crouther:
... when they come around. And World Cup is another example.

Dr. Mike Devlin:
Yes. Well, and again, and just on that note when you look at the U.S. Women's World Cup, they draw heavier. The U.S. Women's National Team, they get higher ratings than the Men's National Team-

Rodney Crouther:
Yeah. And have for a long time.

Dr. Mike Devlin:
And they're winning. But people show it and it kind of adds evidence to that point of if you air it, they will come. If you have an exciting on product field or on-the-field product, people will show up and tune in.

Eddie Sanchez:
Did Dr. Devlin think that this is creating new media opportunities for women athletes to explore?

Dr. Mike Devlin:
When you look at just sponsorship for women's deals, they've had a 20% year-over-year growth since 2020.

Rodney Crouther:
Okay, that's a lot in a short time.

Dr. Mike Devlin:
So I mean and any financial person or business, if you have 20% year over year growth in four years, that is a huge market indicator that there is something there. This may be driven by some of the strong personalities that we're seeing, but also again, the media coverage that they're giving to these people. But then to your point, channels like Instagram and TikTok, we're able to see a lot of these athletes use their own media platforms and they're able to circumvent the gatekeepers to get their message out, garner fanship, and then they're able to turn that and say, "Look, I have X million viewers following me."
Well now they become a valuable commodity to where a sponsor is attracted to work with them. So to go back to one of your earlier points, we are seeing a space now that the gatekeepers of traditional media who were, again, they weren't gatekeepers in terms of nefarious acts, they were limited by time. They needed to sell advertising dollars in a 24-hour space. Well, with TikTok and Instagram and Facebook and social media time is no longer an issue. I can post something four hours ago and it can be seen now and it's not going to be a problem. So we're seeing that piece of the pie not widen, it's stacking, and I think that's been a big contributing factor to seeing how these athletes are able to use these tools to market themselves.

Rodney Crouther:
Can you see a clear evidence of the rise in popularity of women's sports on social media when you look at the metrics?

Dr. Mike Devlin:
I don't know about the rise, but I can see there's a stark contrast. Let's look at the number of followers that people have on Instagram. Now again, we're comparing, there's a little context here to let everyone know about of national versus global viewers, but when you look at Instagram, the top three male athletes are Mbappe, Lionel Messi, and Cristiano Ronaldo they're all U.S. soccer. I mean, not U.S. soccer, but they're global soccer sensations and they're averaging around 500 million each. Then we look at the same Instagram. What are the top women athletes? Ronda Rousey's number one, U.S.-based, only has 17 million.
We look at Serena Williams, she's around 15 million. So you are seeing on a global level, still men dominating the space. But what you notice in those top three, those are all international soccer stars. On the Instagram side, when you look at women's, they're all U.S. The top three are U.S. women between Ronda Rousey, Serena Williams, and then you have Alex Morgan who's up there as well. We've seen a lot of rise with Caitlin Clark. This younger generation understands how to use social media, and I think you're going to see those numbers increase, but there's still a big gap and disparity between men's athlete or men athlete presence on social media versus women's.

Rodney Crouther:
Okay. So this moment is a good start, but there's a lot of potential to develop.

Dr. Mike Devlin:
And I hope we continue to develop, and I think by circumventing some of the gatekeepers that we have in place, this will further help develop women's sports and provide them opportunities to showcase what they do.

Rodney Crouther:
We'll be right back after this.

Eddie Sanchez:
Obviously, the way that we are consuming sports has changed, whether it's watching clips on YouTube to TikToks to social media, a lot of times I'm able to catch little sports highlights on social media. It seems as all of this is helping to contribute to women's sports and the growth of the fandom in that area.

Rodney Crouther:
Yeah, absolutely. It's definitely an opportunity for more women personalities and athletes to find their audience and raise their profile. So yeah, it's definitely expanding opportunities.

Eddie Sanchez:
I'm also curious though, obviously, we're seeing the people that are on the scene right in front of the camera, but there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes and it seems sometimes probably more of the important stuff goes on behind the scenes.

Rodney Crouther:
Yeah, that's a good point. Those front-office and behind-the-scenes roles are really important to building any kind of successful sports program.

Eddie Sanchez:
Did you get a chance to talk to anybody about this?

Rodney Crouther:
Yeah. It turns out that our football program has a few women that are really contributing. So I talked to Dru Sawyer, who is one of our recruiting assistants.

Dru Sawyer:
My name is Dru Sawyer and I'm the on-campus recruiting coordinator and assistant to the head coach for Texas State Football.

Rodney Crouther:
What's an on-campus recruiting coordinator do?

Dru Sawyer:
I don't watch the film and decide who's good enough to come here or anything like that. But once the coaches do know they have a recruit that they want to come visit, I'm kind of their first point of contact outside of the coaching staff. They say, "Hey, we want this guy to come to the game this weekend, reach out to him." I'll send him the invite and the info that's for more game day visits and things like that. And then whenever they come on their official visit where we pay for everything, I'm the one who books their travel if they need to fly or transfer from another university, I fly them in, book their hotel. I make their itinerary for their visit and get with everyone, tell the strength coach, "Hey, we have a cornerback coming in this weekend and we need you to meet with him." Go over the strength things like schedule him and do all the photo shoot and the meals and all of those good things. I do all the event planning for the recruiting.

Rodney Crouther:
Okay, so you make sure everything goes smoothly whenever we bring in a prospect.

Dru Sawyer:
Yes, sir. I sure do.

Rodney Crouther:
Excellent. Let's go back a bit. What's your relationship to sports? Were you always a sports fan?

Dru Sawyer:
Yes, I think trails back to, I just have one sister, so my dad had two girls and I'm the older one, so I watch football with him. He taught me about all of that good stuff. Actually, I wasn't a huge athlete. I was in band in high school, marching band, but still around the football experience. I think because my family bonded doing things like that I went into college, was pre-physical therapy, thought I wanted to do that. Everyone thinks they want to be a doctor or something and then you get there and you're like, "That's not really for me."
And so I went to UT and so obviously big football program there and I was just really interested in the relationships that can be built and formed around athletics in general. But for me and my family and my friends, football, and so I thought I've always been really interested in event planning. What can I do to stay in athletics and still do the things I want to do? Found out about the on-campus recruiting, went to a couple of Texas games and my friend, her dad was the coach on staff whenever we were in school there. And so behind the scenes, I saw their recruiting lounge where they catered the meals and they had the fancy name tags and all those things. And I was like, "I want to work in football and I want to do this." And so-

Rodney Crouther:
Yeah. That's a side of it that I think fans don't really see.

Dru Sawyer:
No, and honestly, I didn't know that this was a job at UT their director of football operations at the time was a woman, Tory Teykl. And so I kind of reached out to her and she's my mentor my last two years of college kind of-

Rodney Crouther:
Oh, that's great that you found a mentor while you're still a student.

Dru Sawyer:
Yes. It was awesome. It was kind of unfortunate timing. I was in school, I changed my major in the spring of 2020, so right when COVID had started-

Rodney Crouther:
Oh my.

Dru Sawyer:
... and so they were pretty strict with everything as they should have been in Austin. And so there weren't any real internship opportunities for my last fall semester there. But reaching out to her, I met with her on the side, did a lot of Zoom meetings with her, found out about things that way.

Rodney Crouther:
How did you find your way to Texas State?

Dru Sawyer:
Football is all about relationships and who you know. My boss at UTSA was friends with one of the former wide receivers coaches at Texas State, and he had mentioned, "Hey, our recruiting guy just left and we have a spot opening up. Do you know anyone? Do you have anyone?" And he said, "Yes, we have this girl that's been doing all of our on-campus recruiting and she's ready for a full-time position." And I interviewed and I moved here a week later. It was very... Moved very fast.

Rodney Crouther:
Great. So it's not just about sports knowledge, it's just business networking.

Dru Sawyer:
Yes. All about who you know and it's so interesting. We'll go to... They have the American Football Coaches Association, the AFCA Conference every year in January, and everyone knows each other. That helped a lot whenever Coach Kinne got here as well because he played for Coach Traylor at UTSA in high school. And so whenever he was calling and saying, "Hey, what do you know about Dru? I know she worked with you over there," that helped a lot. He was like, "Oh yeah, she's great." And Coach Kinne kind of took his word because he had a relationship with him, was like, "Okay, I trust you. I trust your opinion. I'll keep her on here."

Rodney Crouther:
So would that be your advice to a high school or college student coming up who wants a career in sports but isn't an athlete? Just start talking to people.

Dru Sawyer:
Just start talking to people. That's really all you have to do.

Rodney Crouther:
Just to note here, for any students listening or young alums early in your career, regardless of what it is, not necessarily sports, networking is how you get jobs. Remember that.

Dru Sawyer:
They're going to know someone who knows someone who knows someone that has a position open. And I think you have to have an outgoing, talkative personality, especially being a woman in more of an obviously male-dominated field. Having that outgoing personality and being able to build a connection with someone pretty quick is worth it. And I think football is a great... You can meet someone one time and they'll remember you. They'll be like, "Hey, you know what, actually I met this girl and she was great, talked to her for 20 minutes, but loved her personality and I think that she would be a great fit for your position you have open over there."

Eddie Sanchez:
Did Dru talk about seeing more women in the industry now that she's been in there for a couple of years?

Dru Sawyer:
Yes. And we actually have a whole, there's a group chat that's women in college football, and it's honestly mostly recruiting girls and girls that are working in operations across the country and there's 300 people in that group chat and it's really awesome.

Rodney Crouther:
Oh, nationwide?

Dru Sawyer:
Yeah, nationwide everywhere. And so they always post job listings in there or like, "Hey, do y'all know anyone here? I'm looking for a connection there." So now, yeah, I have met a lot of girls, and especially during the busy transfer portal time, guys are going from visit to visit to visit, that's whenever you make a lot of connections too. I know, for example, we had a DB who was on a visit and Colorado State wanted to visit him after us. So their recruiting girl, they'll reach out to you and say, "Hey, I know you have so-and-so in town right now and we want to fly him here next, and so let me get with you on flight times." And so that's been a way that I've met a lot of other women in the field too, is just coordinating visits with each other.

Rodney Crouther:
I'm a sports fan too, so I've seen the marketing from the NFL and that they're in the last couple of years really deliberately trying to be more inclusive of women as sports fans. And it sounds like you're also seeing that from the professional side.

Dru Sawyer:
Yes, absolutely. And I think specifically with recruiting and operations is very... It's more of the detail-oriented kind of things. And I think that women naturally just carry those qualities, I guess more so than... And a lot of you come to a lot of men who want to work in sports, they want to be a coach, they don't want to come and be a support staff member. And so I feel like that's why women have emerged in football. I would say a big thing too is the moms. I've had great relationships with moms and sisters and aunties and all of those things that come on visits with these recruits, especially the high school kids. Sometimes the transfers, they're older, they'll just come by themselves on a visit or they'll come with their girlfriend and that's great too. When they come and they want to talk ball and watch film for two hours with the coaches, I've gone and taken their girlfriend or their mom or whoever to go get a pedicure or go grab a coffee and talk so they don't have to just sit there and do football talks.
So little things like that, especially the moms tell me, "I feel so much better knowing that there's a woman on staff because women just keep things in order and they need someone to help keep the guys in check all the time." And so I think it is valuable. And head coaches and chief of staffs around the country have noticed that, and that's kind of why they push for women to get involved with the operations and recruiting side of things. And even coaching, I know that we used to have a linebackers GA who's a woman, her name's Jada, she was awesome. And I've seen more of that I know at Prairie View A&M they have a wide receivers GA that's a woman. And so I know even outside of the operations things, I feel like women are coming up even in coaching roles, which I think is amazing.

Rodney Crouther:
So what's your long-term career plan?

Dru Sawyer:
I used to think I wanted to get more into graduate from recruiting and move up into football operations and that's more booking the team hotels for home games and away games and all the team travel, team meals like what they eat throughout the week, all of those things. Through my role here, I've met a lot of the donors and alumni. I'm not done with football quite yet, but I think I could see myself pivoting and doing more maybe university advancement, donor relations, and still have that event planning aspect that I like from football, but maybe not the demanding hours for the rest of my life.

Rodney Crouther:
Right. But still, it's your role in football is preparing you for a few different roles.

Dru Sawyer:
Which is really great because you do, especially being at... Not that we're a small program by any means, but more up-and-coming at a big... At Ole Miss, there's probably four of me there. So I will say I do get to do a little bit of everything, help with operations. I do a lot of turning in all the receipts from all our credit cards and football from the university and front office type things. I do feel like I've gotten a lot of experience in a lot of different things and it has set me up to do whatever I want to do next. And the relationships you build, especially in San Marcos, they're great. I've met so many people and everyone's willing to help and take me towards that next step, whatever it may be. So it's been awesome.

Rodney Crouther:
Well, thank you so much for coming in and sharing sounds like the future for women in sports, and football in particularly is brighter than I think a lot of people may realize.

Dru Sawyer:
Yes, it absolutely is. And it's great to see, and all the women who are coming into it, they have a big support system, much bigger than probably even 10 years ago. There's probably not this huge amount of women that were doing this and supporting each other. And so I think it's a great time in football for women.

Eddie Sanchez:
Well, Rodney, it was really cool to hear all of these different conversations that you had and all these different perspectives on women's sports to learn something new about women's sports and their growth and the attention, the media attention that the field is getting.

Rodney Crouther:
Yeah. And across all three conversations, you hear from where things started off 25, 30 years ago from Coach Woodard to where Dru is now, and even at this early stage of her career, she's already plugged into a nationwide network of women in college athletics. So I did a little more research and found out the NCAA reports that over the last decade, there's been a 58% increase in women administrators in college sports.

Eddie Sanchez:
Well, that's a really hopeful stat. I mean, I know that it's been a long time coming for all these changes to occur, but it is nice to hear whenever there's positive growth and that there's more of an equality in the sports room.

Rodney Crouther:
No, it's definitely building. I think the breakdown was that across all three divisions, like a quarter of athletic directors are currently women, but at the top level, division one, it's only about 16%. So there's still definitely room to grow.

Eddie Sanchez:
There's still opportunity, but at the very least, it seems like we're hopefully moving in the right direction.

Rodney Crouther:
Absolutely. And to keep moving in the right direction, hey, come out and support your Bobcat Athletics in April. Our Bobcat women are hosting their spring tournament for volleyball, but before that, Eddie, did you know there was a pro women's volleyball league?

Eddie Sanchez:
I did not.

Rodney Crouther:
Yeah. And if you're listening right as this episode drops on March 28th and 29th, there'll be a mini tournament of League One Volleyball right here on campus.

Eddie Sanchez:
Well, I'm looking forward to those games. Hopefully, I can make it out over the weekend and catch one or two at the very least. And also appreciate you taking the time to talk with all of these amazing individuals about women's sports here at the university. I learned quite a bit and definitely makes me more motivated to just watch more women's sports. I don't feel like I'm watching enough sports as is nowadays but-

Rodney Crouther:
All right, man. I'll meet you at the game next weekend.

Eddie Sanchez:
Sounds good.

Rodney Crouther:
All right, this was definitely a fun one for me, so I hope it was a fun one for you to listen to. And we'll see you next month on Enlighten Me. This podcast is a production of the Division of Marketing and Communications at Texas State University. Podcasts appearing on the Texas State Podcast Network represent the views of the host and guests not of Texas State University.