Enlighten Me

Giselle Kowalski (00:04):
Are you recording? OK, great. So we're doing a podcast for University Marketing. It's about ghosting. And so we have a bunch of questions, and I want to ask all of you guys, so have you ever been ghosted?

Student 1 (00:14):
Yes, I have.

Giselle Kowalski (00:18):
OK. Why? What happened?

Student 1 (00:20):
I don't know if it was like they just didn't like me anymore or I don't know if they just, think they might've just stopped talking to me cause they weren't interested in what I had to do with them.

Student 2 (00:34):
I have ghosted and I've been ghosted.

Student 3 (00:37):
Ghosted. I don't think so. I interact with the right people.

Giselle Kowalski (00:41):
Have you ever been ghosted?

Student 4 (00:43):
No, I don't think so.

Student 5 (00:45):
Ghosted means people

Giselle Kowalski (00:47):
Stop talking. Yeah. Yeah,

Student 5 (00:49):
Many times.

Giselle Kowalski (00:50):
Really? How did it make you feel?

Student 5 (00:52):
I don't know why they got distanced. We did not have any fights or arguments, but they still ghosted me.

Giselle Kowalski (00:58):
So if you could tell something to that person, what would you tell them?

Student 5 (01:03):
Nothing.

Giselle Kowalski (01:04):
OK. Guys, have you ever been ghosted?

Student 6 (01:05):
Sure, yeah.

Student 7 (01:06):
I've never been ghosted.

Giselle Kowalski (01:08):
Really. OK. So how did it make you feel when you were?

Student 6 (01:11):
I didn't really care, dude. Get over it.

Student 7 (01:12):
Have I ever been ghosted? Yeah, like once.

Giselle Kowalski (01:18):
OK. And how did that make you feel?

Student 7 (01:20):
I guess you kind of just stay wondering what's wrong, but life keeps going.

Giselle Kowalski (01:24):
So if you could talk to that person, what would you tell them right now?

Student 7 (01:28):
Honesty is the best policy.

Eddie Sanchez (01:39):
This is Eddie Sanchez.

Rodney Crouther (01:41):
This is Rodney Crouther.

Eddie Sanchez (01:42):
And you are now listening to Enlighten Me, and we have a special Halloween edition for you today. It's all about ghosting.

Rodney Crouther (01:49):
Not that kind of ghost.

Eddie Sanchez (01:50):
Yeah, exactly. So as you just heard, Rodney, we had a couple of interviews with students out and about on the campus and they kind of gave us their insight on ghosting experiences. So because I have you here in front of me, I'm curious, have you been ghosted? Have you been a ghoster?

Rodney Crouther (02:05):
I've never been ghosted. And we don't have to talk about whether or not I ghost. No, I've definitely probably ghosted some acquaintances over the years.

Eddie Sanchez (02:14):
I think for our generation, ghosting is something that's a little bit more contemporary. At least the term is being used a little bit more.

Rodney Crouther (02:20):
Oh yeah, we didn't call it that when I was an undergrad or high schooler.

Eddie Sanchez (02:23):
People just kind of disappear. But to speak to the youth, we have a special guest in the studio with us here today. You might've heard her on Try at Texas State, and she might've actually ghosted you. Ms. Giselle Kowalski.

Giselle Kowalski (02:36):
Hi guys. I'm sorry if I ghosted you. No hard feelings, but yeah. Hello. Nice to be here.

Eddie Sanchez (02:42):
Early on in the podcast, we heard you talking to some students. Can you give us a little bit of information about what you were doing?

Giselle Kowalski (02:48):
Yeah, I feel like I was very surprised by the responses that we got whenever I was interviewing students. Some students were very nonchalant about it. One chick was extremely sad about it and was extremely vulnerable with me, and that really put a stop to, wow, OK, this actually affects people on a way deeper level than we think it does.

Eddie Sanchez (03:09):
So Giselle, have you ghosted? Have you been a ghostee?

Giselle Kowalski (03:12):
I have ghosted someone and someone has ghosted me.

Rodney Crouther (03:16):
I think it's a pretty common thing. I mean just like people don't like confrontation.

Giselle Kowalski (03:19):
Yeah, I find that with, even though we have social media, it also sucks way more. If someone ghosts you and then you are following them and you're still seeing stuff they're posting that hurts more.

Rodney Crouther (03:30):
Before cellphones, smartphones, when somebody ghosted you, you just didn't see 'em anymore. They were just gone.

Giselle Kowalski (03:37):
Right. But then I also get it because I've ghosted people and I've felt great about it.

Eddie Sanchez (03:41):
So when we initially started brainstorming this topic, there were a lot of different elements that I was interested in better understanding. I wanted to just wrap my head around what ghosting is. I wanted to know how we can develop as individuals to better communicate our emotions, so that way we can kind of avoid the ghosting situation, but also wanted to understand the moral and ethical implications of ghosting, how technology is affecting ghosting, and just how social media is kind of influencing modern behaviors.

Rodney Crouther (04:11):
This feels like a topic that's going to end up having a lot of layers. So who did you talk to first?

Eddie Sanchez (04:15):
The first person I spoke with was Dr. Lindsay Timmerman.

Lindsay Timmerman (04:18):
I'm Dr. Lindsay Timmerman. I am an associate professor in the Department of Communication Studies, and my area of research and teaching is interpersonal and relational communication. So I teach courses...

Rodney Crouther (04:28):
And for the layman, does Dr. Timmerman tell us exactly what counts as interpersonal communication?

Eddie Sanchez (04:33):
Yeah, she was actually just about to get into that.

Lindsay Timmerman (04:35):
Interpersonal usually focuses on, it doesn't have to only be one-on-one relationships, but usually a smaller subset of people. So things like a family would fall into interpersonal communication, but often we're studying things like friendships or romantic relationships or maybe sometimes even co-worker relationships, things like that. Back in the olden days, probably we would be thinking about when people get stood up. That used to be a thing, someone would show up for a date and their date wouldn't show up, and it would be just getting stood up. But now, because we do have access to people, it's like when we stop answering texts or we don't pick up a phone call, we don't respond if somebody leaves a voicemail. And I guess the most important piece of that definition is that there's no explanation, that somebody just sort of goes dark. As you and I were talking about before we started recording, it's not necessarily a new thing to disappear out of someone's life and not give an explanation. But just the way that we do it is different now. And I guess the typical amount of access that we're used to having, it seems particularly painful or confusing, I think, when somebody goes silent. I teach about ghosting, and I'm going to talk about this a little bit today from the lens of unrequited love, cause that's often why somebody ghosts, is that somebody has stronger feelings than somebody else.

Eddie Sanchez (05:59):
Do you think that it's as pervasive now as it was in the ’70s or in the ’80s, ’90s? Or do you think it's because of our access to technology, it seems as if it is?

Lindsay Timmerman (06:11):
I think it might be a little bit of both. I think as we said, it might be that we are much more aware of it now just because of the way that we, I guess interact with people, but also can talk about the experiences that we're having by posting on social media and saying, "I can't believe this. I've been ghosted three times this month," or something like that where we just hear about it more. But I also think the way that we date, and I'm specifically talking about this in a romantic context at the moment, but the way that we date is different now than we used to. So if we're dating people more casually or we're meeting somebody online and talking to them a few times only online before we meet in person, it's almost like it's giving us more opportunities to potentially be ghosted or to ghost someone. So it might be a little more common, but also we just talk about it more.

Eddie Sanchez (07:01):
From the research that you've conducted, do you see it much more readily in younger generations, in older generations? Do you think it's something that's across the board?

Lindsay Timmerman (07:09):
I've seen some figures that have said that 50% of people have ghosted someone, and 50% of people have been ghosted that it's fairly common, but not necessarily everybody. I don't know off the top of my head if this is true. My argument would be, or maybe my guess would be that it's probably a little more common in younger generations than older generations simply because of the social norms of dating. I think the older generation probably are still often meeting and dating in a more traditional way, whereas the younger generation is probably relying quite a bit on online means of interacting, at least at first.

Rodney Crouther (07:49):
Yeah, it seems like generationally, my generation was a lot more reluctant to have open discussions about feelings, but this generation does that, talks about mental health openly all the time and it's great, but they also seem a little more averse to confrontation and conflict resolution face-to-face. Has Dr. Timmerman done any research on that generational difference?

Lindsay Timmerman (08:11):
I haven't done specifically research on exactly that question, but I have met a surprisingly awesome number of kids who are really emotionally intelligent and are really able to say what they are thinking, state a boundary, those kinds of things that we probably wouldn't have never thought of as a kid. And so I do think there is some difference in how they might approach conflict or be willing — like when I was in graduate school, I did a mediation certificate, so I could help mediate conflicts. And one of the things that I did was went to grade schools where they were creating these mediation programs for the kiddos to mediate conflicts with each other, which was so amazing. But now you have an entire generation of kids who have grown up with stuff like that, and so they learn how to manage things differently than some of their predecessors did.

Giselle Kowalski (09:04):
So, wait, Eddie, I know this isn't my podcast, but I need to ask this one question. What are some conflict management skills I can learn so that my generation can stop ghosting one another?

Lindsay Timmerman (09:15):
Well, I will say, and this ties very much to ghosting, is no matter what the most common or the most preferred method of conflict management is always being indirect or avoidant. Most people don't like conflict, or they're a little afraid of conflict, or they've been socialized to think conflict means danger or something bad, that if you have conflict in your relationship, that means there's something wrong with your relationship. And so a lot of times in fields like psychology or communication, we have to try to teach people that conflict is just inevitable. If you are in an interdependent relationship, you're going to disagree on things sometimes. And so the problem isn't to eradicate conflict, but the problem is to be able to manage it well. So I would say one tip is to try to learn not to be afraid of it or not to see it as a red flag or an impending doom of your relationship, but also to learn how to be a little more comfortable with being not aggressive, but assertive rather than avoidant. And I think ghosting is a great example of a way that somebody deals with an uncomfortable situation or a conversation they don't want to have by just disappearing. So it's a way to be passive but destructive at the same time. But it also feels probably to the ghoster that that's just easier in that moment to not have the uncomfortable conversation

Eddie Sanchez (10:52):
Is the more dominant individual in the relationship the person that's more likely to ghost? Just because I felt like it's almost like a power move to a certain degree. I'm kind of dominating this situation by taking over.

Lindsay Timmerman (11:07):
There's something called the principle of least interest, which is that the person who cares the least in a relationship has the most power, which sounds horrible, but is true. It's kind of what you were just getting at, right? If I don't really care what you think, then you're going to be the one that's trying to make sure things are OK. So if you're really in love with me, and I'm not really in love with you, I end up having more power. And so that would be the person that would also maybe want to ghost because they're not interested in unrequited love. There are two partners. There's the would-be partner who is interested in a relationship, wants to intensify or wants to initiate, and then there's the rejecter, right? So the rejecter would be the person that has less interest in this case and then would therefore have a little more power. So yeah, I think you might be onto something.

Rodney Crouther (12:00):
So I definitely see how ghosting can be a control thing, a power move. So did she have any examples of when the more passive person in a relationship might choose to ghost?

Eddie Sanchez (12:11):
Yeah, she actually touched on that a little bit and kind of explained when the passive person might be the one to initiate the ghosting for their own reasons and kind of their own safety.

Lindsay Timmerman (12:18):
In general I could say here are some of the reasons that ghosting is maybe not great, and we can talk about all of those, but I also want to always caveat and say sometimes people ghost because it feels like the safest option. So sometimes if you are dealing with somebody who the reason they are more powerful is because they are abusive or very manipulative or gaslighting or those kinds of very toxic, problematic behaviors, ghosting sometimes feels like the safest option other than having a confrontation about behavior or things like that.

Eddie Sanchez (12:51):
That's one of the reasons that I heard that ghosting might occur because there's a bit of concern of how that rejection might be taken and the other individual might not react in a very appropriate manner.

Lindsay Timmerman (13:06):
And it's interesting because ghosting can happen among in romantic relationships, but also in friend groups or honestly a family member or just a more casual acquaintance or work friend. So it can happen in all kinds of relationships, but if we think about unrequited love as an example, we're very socialized to understand the feelings of the would-be, right? The would-be partner is the one that has stars in their eyes, and there are songs written about, and there are movies that follow somebody who's just so in love and has such a cross. And we understand sort of what that script looks like to be a would-be. But the rejecter honestly is in a tough spot because there really aren't good helpful models or scripts for how to be a rejecter. And often when you talk to people who are in an unrequited love situation, the rejecter actually has stronger negative emotions or negative feelings about their situation because they feel either frustrated or guilty or both about how to handle that. And so you can, I guess, again, see why ghosting might feel like just an easy way to get out of that. And so sometimes, even though it's maybe not the most emotionally mature answer to ghost someone, you can still see where sometimes it comes from a bit of a good place, their intention was not to hurt them, but sometimes it does end up obviously hurting them quite a lot.

Eddie Sanchez (14:36):
For our ghostees and our ghosters, what would be your recommendation for improving their communication moving forward?

Lindsay Timmerman (14:45):
If you feel that you have been a ghoster and you now are like "uh, maybe that wasn't the move" or "maybe I should say I'm sorry." I think that often can be appreciated. I don't think it needs to reopen the relationship or now we have to go on a date to discuss it all. It can be as simple as "I realize now that what I did could have been pretty hurtful and I definitely didn't mean to hurt you, and I'm really sorry," that can go a long way. And the other person might say screw you and block you. Or the other person might say, "Oh my gosh, thank you. I feel a little better now just knowing you didn't fall off a cliff." But I think moving forward, just working extra hard on being honest or saying the hard thing. Because I think quite often when we really do say the hard thing, it doesn't go as bad as we think. I think we can make things up in our mind that something's going to be just terrible or they're going to be really mad, or they're going to burst into tears and never speak to us again or something like that. And quite often that isn't the way it goes.

Eddie Sanchez (15:51):
And how about for our ghostees?

Lindsay Timmerman (15:55):
That's hard because ghostees can, especially if their self-esteem is a little low to begin with, being ghosted can be particularly hard on them. If you have really high self-esteem, you might not even notice you've been ghosted. You might be like, whatever, dude. But I think if you already are a little unsure or you've had maybe a rough relationship in the past and now this happened, it can sort of pile on and make you feel bad about yourself. So I think being gentle and realistic with yourself and sort of giving yourself the acceptance that, "Yeah, rejection is hard. This hurts for real. There's something going on in my brain and it hurts," is OK, allow yourself to be sad for a day or two, and then talk to your very best friend who is good at distracting you and try really hard to put it in your rear view. And then from moving forward, I think it's OK to say that to new partners. "I've had a weird ghosting experience in the past, and I really hated it for this reason. It made it really hard for me to understand if I did something wrong or it made it really hard for me to understand if I missed a red flag. So we don't have to be together forever, but I just do appreciate if you don't want to be with me anymore, just let's have a quick and dirty conversation." Yeah, let's just put it out there.

Eddie Sanchez (17:17):
So I think for our listeners, the million-dollar question is have you ever ghosted or been ghosted?

Lindsay Timmerman (17:26):
I think that I kind of did ghost a friend in my 20s or 30s, and the reason was that I felt like she kept flaking on plans, and it always felt like the reason was she just liked the other people better. And it was me and two other girls and we were like, it just seems like she keeps deciding to do something else. And I was closest with her out of the three of us, and so I just kind of stopped inviting her to do things. And I wasn't a jerk or anything, but I just kind of receded into the background. And I never said, "This hurts my feelings when you cancel," which I should have done if I was being a grownup. And if I would take my own advice, I should have said, "Hey, it seems like you're canceling a lot, and it's making me feel a certain type of way," but instead I just decided, well, I guess this relationship, this friendship isn't for her anymore. And so I stopped asking her to do things and then I learned later that she asked one of the other two girls what happened, what's going on with Lindsay? Does Lindsay seem OK to you? She did apparently notice eventually that things were different, that I kind of stopped chasing her, I guess. But yeah.

Giselle Kowalski (18:53):
OK. So have you guys ever ghosted someone?

Student 8 (18:56):
Yes. Yes. Yes.

Giselle Kowalski (18:57):
All of you. Have you ever ghosted someone?

Student 1 (18:59):
No one that I knew that well. Maybe just someone I really didn't know that well, I might have, yes, ghosted.

Giselle Kowalski (19:06):
What would you tell that person if you could talk to them right now?

Student 1 (19:09):
Probably honestly act like nothing happened because I dunno, I think that'd be really awkward.

Student 9 (19:16):
It's kind of understandable looking back, especially now that I realized that whenever I was ghosted, I was at that really awkward stage in my life where I probably deserved to be ghosted. You're trying to talk to girls, and the girls obviously did not want to talk to you like that. So I mean, yeah, getting ghosted is definitely understandable, but now, especially now, that being the ghoster.

Giselle Kowalski (19:38):
Have you ever ghosted someone?

Student 3 (19:39):
No, because once more I'd like, I like to treat people the way that I want to be treated.

Giselle Kowalski (19:42):
So have you ghosted someone?

Student 4 (19:45):
Probably.

Giselle Kowalski (19:46):
Why did you ghost 'em?

Student 4 (19:46):
I'm not very good at confrontation. Also, I'm just like a "protect my peace" kind of girl. So I don't know.

Giselle Kowalski (19:57):
Wait, have you ever ghosted someone?

Student 5 (19:59):
No. I conclude, when I go away I conclude things.

Giselle Kowalski (20:04):
So have you ever ghosted someone?

Student 6 (20:06):
Absolutely.

Student 7 (20:07):
I've never been ghosted or ghosted anyone. I believe in clear communication.

Giselle Kowalski (20:10):
Why did you ghost someone?

Student 6 (20:11):
Man, there wasn't really a motive. It kind of, I just fizzled out.

Giselle Kowalski (20:16):
So to the person that ghosted you, what would you tell them now?

Student 6 (20:20):
What's good?

Rodney Crouther (20:24):
Well, it was a great conversation with Dr. Timmerman. There's a lot more nuance to ghosting than I really thought about. I haven't been in that space for a minute. She brought up some aspects of ghosting that I think we heard. Giselle, when you were talking to students, did you feel that?

Giselle Kowalski (20:38):
Yeah, I definitely saw some students that would try to act cooler about it than I knew that they were feeling, they'd be like, "yeah, whatever."

Rodney Crouther (20:47):
Yeah.

Giselle Kowalski (20:47):
"Yeah, it's fine. I can come back from it." And it's like, OK but you can also admit that it hurt a little bit.

Rodney Crouther (20:53):
Yeah, definitely. I mean, it can't not.

Giselle Kowalski (20:56):
Yeah, exactly. And then I'm specifically talking about the one student that said, whenever I asked, what would you say to the person that ghosted you? He was like, yeah, what's up? I was like, you wouldn't say that. You wouldn't say what's up?

Rodney Crouther (21:08):
I don't know. They might, they talk about the best revenge being living well, it's just like you're not going to show that hurt to somebody that ghosted you.

Giselle Kowalski (21:15):
Yeah, I guess so. I don't know. I guess it's such a game. I feel like with social media and then relationships and especially at this stage of our lives, we're just playing a game. We're just in a sim.

Rodney Crouther (21:27):
Well, yeah, and the games evolved because pre-social media, when somebody ghosted you, they were just gone. You didn't have to see 'em pop up on Facebook or Instagram or following you on Twitter or something.

Giselle Kowalski (21:42):
Yeah, I mean, I'm not watching your stories and seeing that you're actually out with friends or another girl, and I mean, it's just all drama. It's just a breeding ground for more drama.

Eddie Sanchez (21:51):
And social media, honestly, that was kind of one of the main areas of focus that I want to get into for this conversation just because I know that it has a big influence on youth culture, and it affects the way that we communicate with each other, not just the youth obviously, but even as adults, as individuals. And so I reached out to Dr. Nicole Taylor from the Department of Anthropology.

Nicole Taylor (22:11):
My name is Nicole Taylor and I'm an associate professor of anthropology. I study youth culture and social media.

Eddie Sanchez (22:19):
She kind of broke down how social media and technology is affecting ghosting and how it's affecting youth's culture. What got you interested in anthropology?

Nicole Taylor (22:27):
Right out of college, I actually went to Texas State University as an undergrad, and I was an English major and I taught high school for a few years, and I realized at the end of those three years that I was more interested in studying youth than in teaching them English.

Eddie Sanchez (22:41):
That's understandable. Yes.

Nicole Taylor (22:43):
So that's what got me interested in anthropology, and that's what got me interested in studying youth culture.

Eddie Sanchez (22:49):
What sort of research do you do or what, I guess, what area of anthropology do you focus on?

Nicole Taylor (22:54):
So when I first started, I was doing research on body image in teenagers, and I wrote a book called "Schooled on Fat" about that. But most recently I've been interested in youth and social media, wondering how they create identities in social media, connect and disconnect in social media and express themselves emotionally. What we looked at were social norms and tacit rules across social media sites. So what's considered acceptable and unacceptable, and again, sort of broadly how people connect and disconnect on these sites.

Eddie Sanchez (23:29):
Do you think that social media allows for these sorts of behaviors that might not regularly occur in real life?

Nicole Taylor (23:38):
Absolutely. What we learned in interviews and through observations of college students on social media is that the upside of social media is that it allows people to connect much more easily and stay connected much more easily with people that we might otherwise lose touch with, old friends, distant relatives, people like that. At the same time, the other side of the coin is that it allows us to disconnect much more easily as well. So what students told us in interviews is that sort of hiding behind a screen, that mediation that technology provides, allows for behavior that might not occur face-to-face. For example, mean comments on someone's post or attacking someone on social media. Students said those are things that people wouldn't feel emboldened to do necessarily, but the mediated technology makes it easier. And I think ghosting is an extension of that.

Rodney Crouther (24:40):
Yeah, Giselle, I know how I feel about social media, it's fun, but I can dip in and out of it. It's not something I'm glued to. How does social media make you feel about communication?

Giselle Kowalski (24:51):
Oh, I hate it. It's not real. It's not real communication. It's so fake.

Rodney Crouther (24:58):
Yeah, that's kind of what I think, but I think I sound like a grandpa when I say it, but yeah, it just seems like a lot of noise and not much real talk.

Giselle Kowalski (25:06):
Yeah, and I feel like especially we talked about this earlier with mental health and everything, everyone's so aware of it, but then it just gets to the point where it's like, oh my God, how aware can we be? We're not even talking about it in real life. All we're doing is posting about it.

Rodney Crouther (25:19):
Eddie, did Dr. Taylor address that issue or has she researched the numbing effect that social media can have on people?

Eddie Sanchez (25:25):
She actually talked about how emotions are not always authentically expressed on social media, even though that's kind of the perception that people are being honest on there. The truth of the matter is that a lot of things are, it's all a front to a certain degree.

Nicole Taylor (25:40):
We dug in pretty deeply into emotional expression and how people communicate their emotions on social media. And what we found is that social norms sort of discourage authentic expression of emotion on social media. Well, that is if you're happy and you're excited, well that's acceptable. That's something that you want to communicate. But if you're depressed or you're sad or you've had a really hard day, these are emotions that are less acceptable. And so students had all these workarounds for these kinds of emotional expressions. One was kind of framing it as a life lesson after the fact. "I went through this really hard time, but I came out a stronger person." Or going ghost as they called it, which is disappearing from social media for a while, which they felt like was more appropriate and acceptable than sharing what they were really feeling at the time.

Eddie Sanchez (26:42):
That's interesting that you took that term in kind of a different direction than I had heard before because generally when you hear of ghosting, it's primarily in an interpersonal relationship or a romantic relationship. But ghosting can also be essentially stepping away from social media like you said. So that's really interesting. My question to you is how would you define ghosting?

Nicole Taylor (27:03):
Well, ghosting I think is both. It's disappearing from your presence, disappearing from social media for a while and becoming a ghost. But it's also as it's more popularly termed kind of cutting off a connection with someone suddenly without explanation and disappearing from their life. And the research shows that this has become popularized through dating sites. So we commonly associate it with romantic relationships and dating apps, but it also happens with friendships. And there have even been a couple of recent articles talking about it happening with job applicants that this is becoming more common, that you go through a series of interviews thinking that things are going well and all of a sudden

Eddie Sanchez (27:49):
And the recruiters ghost the people that applied for the job, right?

Nicole Taylor (27:53):
Yeah. So we're seeing this happening in all sectors of life.

Eddie Sanchez (27:57):
So what is the anthropological effect of ghosting on society?

Nicole Taylor (28:00):
Well, I think if we think about this in terms of anthropology, we look at social norms of behavior and relationships. And one of the big ones that came out of our social media study was reciprocity. And so for example, you like someone's post, you expect them to like yours as well. And we even had students tell us that they would have friends sort of angrily text them and say, "Hey, I've been liking your posts. I need likes. Can you like mine too?"

Eddie Sanchez (28:28):
Show me some love back here.

Nicole Taylor (28:29):
Yeah, exactly. And so I think that it really fractures that social norm of reciprocity, of the sort of back and forth of communication, the expectations that if we reach out to someone, if we text them, they're going to text us back. I mean, we even heard about this in terms of timing of texts. And so communication is so immediate now, the expectation is that when you text someone, you get a response immediately. And so students talk to us about how if they texted someone and didn't get an immediate response, they worried, what does this mean? Are they avoiding me? Are they going to ghost me? Are they just busy? Is something wrong in their lives? And so I feel like technology is really kind of shaping these social norms.

Eddie Sanchez (29:20):
Is ghosting tied into, I guess I'm curious, depending on an individual's, whether they have a low self-esteem or low self-image or high self-image, from your understanding, who is more likely to do ghosting?

Nicole Taylor (29:35):
Well, from what I understand, a lot of people are likely do ghosting. And so a recent survey by Forbes magazine found that 75% of respondents said that they had been ghosted. And so that means that a lot of people are ghosting, and a lot of people are experiencing being ghosted. And in terms of the impact, I mean if we can imagine that posting something that doesn't get likes impacts one's self image, well then the idea that you would reach out to someone that you are building a connection with or that you already have a connection with, to have them never respond and disappear out of your life, that's pretty unsettling. That's pretty upsetting. And so it makes people wonder, what did I do wrong? And it's this ongoing sense of ambiguity and uncertainty. You never know. You never get that feedback. What students have said to us about ghosting is that the deeper the connection you have with someone, the more hurtful ghosting is. And so it's become kind of normalized on dating apps for initially you're texting back and forth or messaging back and forth with someone and maybe they ghost you. Well, that's not such a big deal. That's become kind of a normal thing. But once you start going out on dates or you've developed a friendship with someone or you've had a series of interactions, basically the closer the relationship, the more emotionally impactful ghosting is.

Eddie Sanchez (31:11):
Do studies show that maybe somebody who's a little bit more anxious might be, are they a little bit more willing to step away from a situation?

Nicole Taylor (31:19):
Well, yeah. What the research shows is that one of the reasons that people ghost is to avoid having an uncomfortable or awkward conversation. Basically, they want to exit their relationship, but they don't know how to do it. Or maybe they're afraid of confrontation. And so ghosting is just an easy kind of passive way out. So yeah, I would imagine that someone with social anxiety who is worried about how that conversation might go would be likely to ghost. And also to speak to your earlier point, I do think it's just becoming normalized. And if 75% of people surveyed have been ghosted and we're all experiencing it, then it is changing social norms of interaction.

Eddie Sanchez (32:13):
Is ghosting more prevalent nowadays?

Nicole Taylor (32:16):
I mean, I think it's probably always happened to some degree, but I think technology is allowing it to happen much more easily. So it's a lot easier to walk away from someone that maybe you only have an online connection with or maybe that you've just met online and you don't share a circle of friends or any acquaintances yet. So I think whereas before technology, we didn't have an opportunity to meet some of the people that we're easily able to meet and interact with now. And so I think that with dating apps and with social media, we are constantly bombarded with opportunities for new connections. They're everywhere. If you just look at how many people you're friends with on social media and then if you're on dating apps, just look at how many people you're looking at, how many potential dates you're looking at every day. I mean, the possibilities are endless. And so in some ways, when you have that many opportunities and you have that many people, I think that ghosting can just be an easy way to walk away from some of those connections.

Eddie Sanchez (33:44):
And I've heard, and I've probably heard it from wrong sources, but I've always heard humans can essentially make a finite amount of relationships. They're kind of limited in how many connections that they can really carry through throughout a life. And it seems to me as if ghosting might be a result of too many connections being made.

Nicole Taylor (34:06):
Yeah, I think that's possible. I think we have to remember that there are different degrees of ghosting. And so it's one thing to ghost someone that you just texted back and forth with for five minutes on a dating app. It's another thing to ghost someone that maybe who you've been dating for a year. Those are two, I think, very different behaviors. I think the first one has become just very normalized, and I think a lot of people are experiencing it and a lot of people are doing it. And yeah, I think your point is a good one that we can only really build and maintain a certain number of meaningful relationships. And I think ghosting has really kind of become popularized with the dating apps. I think ghosting entered the urban diction vocabulary in like 2017, just a few years after Tinder came on the scene. And so if you think about those dating apps where you're swiping, they're really commodifying. It's like online shopping, it kind of commodifies the connection. It commodifies the whole dating experience. And so just like you might put something from Amazon in your cart and then decide, no, nevermind and delete it, the dating apps kind of remind me of that.

Eddie Sanchez (35:29):
Is there anything that you could tell our audience about potentially not how to deal with ghosting, but maybe how to traverse that obstacle?

Nicole Taylor (35:40):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's hard because when somebody ghosts, you no longer have the opportunity to check in with them and say, "Hey, what happened? Did I do something? Can we talk about this?" And so I think it just leaves this sense of ambiguity, this sort of ongoing sense of ambiguity and uncertainty. And so I think my best advice would be to remember that the behavior has more to do with the person who's doing it than it has to do with you. And to try not to take it personally and to lean on your friends and your social network for support because it is kind of an isolating, upsetting experience to be ghosted.

Rodney Crouther (36:26):
Has Dr. Taylor been ghosted or ghosted anyone?

Nicole Taylor (36:29):
Yes and yes. So yeah, I mean, to answer your earlier question, I think it cuts across age groups.

Rodney Crouther (36:42):
We'll be right back after this.

Giselle Kowalski (36:53):
So you guys think ghosting is OK?

Student 8 (36:57):
No. No.

Giselle Kowalski (36:58):
OK. What would you tell a friend that's thinking about ghosting someone? What would you tell them?

Student 8 (37:03):
Well, I would ask why first, and then if it's a good enough reason, I'd be like, do what you got to do.

Giselle Kowalski (37:08):
Do you think ghosting is OK?

Student 10 (37:11):
I probably shouldn't have done that. I could have said something about, informed him and that's on my part, but...

Student 11 (37:19):
I probably wouldn't be super against the idea. It kind of just depends on the situation. If someone has done something really bad, they probably deserve to be ghosted.

Giselle Kowalski (37:32):
Do you think ghosting is OK?

Student 1 (37:35):
It depends. Like I said, if you don't know ’em well and you just don't really want to talk to them, I would say it's OK.

Giselle Kowalski (37:43):
Do you think ghosting is OK?

Student 2 (37:45):
To a certain degree. If you are not in a relationship with said person, then it's whatever. It's none of your business. If somebody can't text you back, well big deal. It's texting. But if you're in a relationship, then yeah, ghosting is definitely a little strange.

Student 3 (38:00):
To each their own, everyone has their own feelings and stuff.

Giselle Kowalski (38:03):
OK. So do you think ghosting people is OK?

Student 4 (38:06):
No, I don't really. Why not? It doesn't feel good, and I don't think you should do things that make other people not feel good. But everyone's probably done it sometimes, so.

Giselle Kowalski (38:17):
If your friend was like, "Hey, I'm thinking about ghosting this person," what would you tell them?

Student 4 (38:21):
If it's one of the girls, do what you got to do. If it's a guy, you should do better.

Giselle Kowalski (38:29):
So there's a double standard. OK. Understood. Understood. OK, thank you. So do you think ghosting is okay or not at all?

Student 5 (38:37):
Not okay. It's good to let someone know why you're not talking to them.

Giselle Kowalski (38:42):
Do you think ghosting is OK?

Student 4 (38:45):
I think communications a lot better.

Giselle Kowalski (38:47):
Do you think it's OK to ghost someone?

Student 7 (38:48):
I don't believe it's OK to ghost someone. I would never ghost someone because I'm not scared of conflict.

Student 6 (38:54):
You know what? No, I regret doing it. You shouldn't ghost people. But if you need to just separate yourself then let 'em know that.

Rodney Crouther (39:00):
Listening to both these professors and especially the students you talk to, there's a lot more nuance and complicated feelings around ghosting than you just casually think of. So it does make me wonder, did you get a feeling from any of those kids, Giselle, that sometimes they think it's OK to ghost?

Giselle Kowalski (39:29):
Yeah, I definitely got that feeling. I had two different camps. I had one that was like, it's absolutely not OK, and we need to figure out clear communication. And then I had the other group that it's like there are certain situations where it's absolutely OK, and I've been in both of those situations where it really just depends on the relationship you have with the person that you're ghosting or that is ghosting you.

Eddie Sanchez (39:51):
So I had a lot of the same questions about the morality and ethics of ghosting as well. So I reached out to a philosophy professor just to get some insight on that.

Rodney Crouther (39:58):
Oh, who did you find to talk to about that?

Evan Schmiedehaus (40:00):
My name is Evan Schmiedehaus and I teach in the Department of Philosophy.

Eddie Sanchez (40:03):
For our listeners who just might not be familiar, can you describe what ethics is or how, I guess from a philosophical standpoint, what that represents?

Evan Schmiedehaus (40:12):
That's a big question, and there are many different interpretations to that specific question. So just to simplify, the way that I present it to my students is it's an inquiry about morality. So morality in governing principles, I use those terms interchangeably with my students, specifically because of the loaded and charged implications of morality. There's a considerable tendency to confuse moralizing with morality. So I move more in the direction of governing principles. So I guess strictly speaking, ethics is viewed as a system of organizing and using your governing principles in a way to approach various moral dilemmas or problem-solving in general is how I would frame it.

Eddie Sanchez (40:55):
So you said there's a difference between moralizing and morality. I'm just curious, could you explain what that difference is to me?

Evan Schmiedehaus (41:02):
Yeah. So moralizing to me, this is my interpretation, feels a little bit more prescriptive, and there can be kind of a loaded judgment dynamic as well where you're telling somebody what they should do, prescribing a specific course of action, specific kind of behavior that feels a little freighted, feels as if we're judged or evaluated as a person, contrasting maybe behavior or even the thought process, moving the direction of ethical decision making.

Eddie Sanchez (41:33):
I had an opportunity to talk to a communications professor and a professor from the anthropology department, I believe about ghosting. And that's why I want to bring you in to kind of get your perspective on this from an ethical and moral standpoint, I suppose. Have you seen a lot of research done on ghosting and ethics?

Evan Schmiedehaus (41:47):
No is the answer to your question. So I think this is an interesting and timely conversation because frankly I haven't considered the topic outside of a social implication. So how this phenomenon shows up in a social context. I haven't seen any research associated with ethics and ghosting, but I think that you're onto something for sure.

Giselle Kowalski (42:08):
So is this something that my generation only has to deal with or is it something that oldies like y'all have to deal with too?

Rodney Crouther (42:16):
No, it is definitely not new. Like I said, I didn't get ghosted when I was dating, but I definitely spent a lot of time with friends who just got ghosted, and I know some people who have ghosted people. So no, it's been happening. I can definitely verify in the ’70s and ’80s.

Giselle Kowalski (42:34):
Eddie, what did Evan have to say about this?

Eddie Sanchez (42:37):
It wasn't anything surprising. This is a phenomenon that's been happening throughout the history of mankind. He kind of just broke down how it occurs in today's society.

Evan Schmiedehaus (42:45):
I think that it's taken shape in a different way and similar to some of the many advances within communication, I think the intensity has and frequency has developed and shown up in a very different way. It seems to certainly be a part of cultural dialogue and discourse in a different way as of late.

Eddie Sanchez (43:04):
So what do you think ghosting says about ethics in modern society?

Evan Schmiedehaus (43:08):
I think that it speaks to we've got some communication difficulties and challenges in front of us. I'm concerned about how and when we choose to self-express and what we choose to express, how we develop relationships. And I think from an ethical point of view, just again in a very reductive way, I think there were some broad ethics that could potentially come into play, for example, do unto others. I mean, most cultures share that dynamic do unto others, and in the manner in which you would have others treat you essentially. But with this phenomenon, it feels a little bit differently. It almost feels as if individuals, maybe even groups to some extent, are quick to rush into a different sort of a calculus, "do unto others before they do unto me," if that makes sense. So there are resonant dimensions that show up with that. I think that there might be some uncertainty on the part of a potential ethical agent making a decision to ghost, and there's certainly a resonant dynamic. For those of us that have been ghosted. What does that feel like? What are the implications? And to use my earlier example, if you have been ghosted, are you now more prone to move in the direction of ghosting others? And how do we justify that? Are we even thinking about the implications of ghosting to us, to our lived experience, what we might receive in the future, and what it is that we are exhibiting towards others?

Eddie Sanchez (44:24):
You're touching on a lot of different topics that I want to get into. So I'll kind of start with do individuals have the right to ghost?

Evan Schmiedehaus (44:33):
I think it's an interesting question. I think that there are some broad ethical implications that should be considered. And if we look at it from kind of a self-serving point of view, how could this kind of treatment that I extend towards others be reciprocated and directed towards me in the future? So there's kind of a self-serving dynamic. And I also think just my area of at least initial interest when I'm approaching a moral dilemma, thinking through ethics in general is normative ethics. So thinking about what we ought to do in this case, I think that the ethical calculus that shows up for many folks is contextually dependent. What's going on? What's the nature of the relationship again? Is it established? Is it new? Is there a relationship? So do we have the right, I mean, that's an interesting question. I think the answer is that like most anything you could justify your right to discontinue communication, but I think that that might even potentially negate the ethical implications of what should I do? And again, from a normative perspective, what is the appropriate course of action? What is reflective of my ethical point of view? I think that that could be compromised even if we justify it from the space of rights.

Eddie Sanchez (45:51):
That is a lot to try to absorb and weave your way through. And understandably, because so much of this is contextual.

Evan Schmiedehaus (46:02):
I mean, look, culturally we're programmed to be fixated on this idea of individual rights, and duties and responsibilities that come with that seem to be frequently neglected in my humble opinion.

Eddie Sanchez (46:14):
So that actually leads into my next question. What are the duties and responsibilities of potentially a ghoster, a ghostee so to speak, somebody who's been ghosted? Does the ghostee for instance, do they have the responsibility or the moral duty to be forgiving?

Evan Schmiedehaus (46:29):
Personally as an individual and as a person who is teaching these ideas as well? To my students, I think the duty comes into play when we evaluate what it is that we espouse as our ethical position contrasting our behavior. So is our behavior in alignment with our ideas and our ethical rhetoric, for lack of a better designation, that we put out into the world? So I tell you that I'm about these things, but my behavior isn't in alignment with what it is that I'm referencing. So for me, I think that we have a duty to at minimum evaluate any potential disconnect. And I also think that as ethical agents, we have a duty to evaluate the ethical ideas and reasoning methods that we put out into the world.

Rodney Crouther (47:18):
What is an ethical agent? Do you get a badge with that?

Evan Schmiedehaus (47:19):
Yeah, so it's a person who's acting with a sense of ethics, presenting, representing some kind of ethics, somebody that is approaching maybe in this context, the ethical dilemma or thinking through the ethical implications of ghosting.

Eddie Sanchez (47:35):
Is it better to lie to someone to avoid hurting their feelings than to ghost?

Evan Schmiedehaus (47:40):
That's a classic philosophical dilemma. So it depends on which school of thought you align with. And for me, I value honesty, and the moral associated with that is truth telling. There's other interesting questions, is if you are neglecting to give somebody the whole truth in order to spare somebody's feelings, is that dishonest? Is that some way out of alignment with our individual morals? It's interesting to consider. So I think it depends on the individual. For me, I don't think that ghosting, unless they're contextual dynamics that are introduced, I don't think it's, it's an effective method of embodying and representing an ethical point of view. And at the same time, I don't think it's effective in terms of, again, the resonant implications of how this phenomenon could impact us in a larger context. So more people, you and I ghost to one another, you might ghost somebody else. I could ghost another person. And I'm very interested in continuing and initiating and broadening discourse, contrasting, shutting it down.

Eddie Sanchez (48:53):
How has social media affected ethics?

Evan Schmiedehaus (48:55):
I don't think it's helping it necessarily. I mean, that's my intuitive answer, and part of it is that I think we spend a lot of time talking at each other instead of with each other. This for me is of great value because we're talking through ideas, we're having a conversation, and we don't necessarily need to agree or generate consensus. We're just working through our thoughts. Man, doing so in a public setting I think is of great value. It seems like there is, we're fascinated with, I don't know that this is a new phenomenon by any means with identity in a different way, which seems to take center stage in social media. Let me tell you what I'm about. Let me tell you who I am. But is there substance behind that? How am I showing up in the world? And it provides a lot of cover. I'm going to give you a very simple, I'm going to back up a little bit and give you a very simple answer. I don't think it's helping. OK. I think that there are some benefits of course to social media, and like everybody else in the world, I have my own method of engaging with social media, but I don't know that it's helping from an ethical point of view.

Eddie Sanchez (49:53):
What is the more ethical way to let somebody down?

Evan Schmiedehaus (49:57):
I think to be focused on kindness and care and generosity and spirit, knowing that people process information, disappointment, feeling let down in their own unique ways to some extent. I mean, there's certainly some dynamics of feeling let down that we can all relate to and anticipate it. I think those examples are dynamics that should inform how we approach this phenomenon of ghosting and the potential of letting somebody down, being kind again, kind of connecting to that broad ethic of doing unto others. How would we want to be treated? How would we want for our friends, our family members, our children, our parents to be treated out in the world? I think that there's value in advancing those sorts of simple ethical ideas.

Eddie Sanchez (50:43):
Have you ghosted somebody?

Evan Schmiedehaus (50:45):
Yes, is the answer to the question. And it's interesting because in the moment it showed up for me as something, it created psychological discomfort. I'm like, huh, I don't know that this feels right. My justification, I think is shared with others. We don't have an established relationship. So I worked around it, a self-serving approach to making sense of that conundrum that I experienced. But the answer is yes.

Eddie Sanchez (51:13):
So, Giselle, what do you think about ghosting now and how would you approach it after hearing all this conversation?

Giselle Kowalski (51:30):
It's given me a lot of insight, but unfortunately I think I will still be a ghoster, hashtag forever.

Rodney Crouther (51:36):
Wow. After this conversation, I think this kind of ghosting is way scarier than the other kind.

Eddie Sanchez (51:43):
Yeah.

Giselle Kowalski (51:44):
Really. Why?

Rodney Crouther (51:47):
There's not the same emotional stakes with a spirit from beyond the grave as people in your life just bouncing on you. If Casper floats through the room, that's not going to hurt my heart.

Eddie Sanchez (51:59):
Doesn't break your heart.

Rodney Crouther (52:00):
Yeah.

Giselle Kowalski (52:01):
OK. You kind of lost me on that one, but um..

Rodney Crouther (52:05):
I'm not afraid of spirits.

Eddie Sanchez (52:07):
I don't think you understood what he was saying.

Giselle Kowalski (52:08):
No, I definitely didn't. Yeah, that went right over my head.

Eddie Sanchez (52:12):
Because like the ghosting and ghosts...

Rodney Crouther (52:14):
Don't scare me. Like emotional...

Giselle Kowalski (52:15):
Oh, oh, oh, sorry.

Eddie Sanchez (52:17):
Thanks for coming to the studio with us here today, Giselle, appreciate you getting those conversations and recording the students and their responses.

Rodney Crouther (52:25):
Yeah, that really added a lot to the discussion.

Giselle Kowalski (52:27):
Oh, I'm so glad. It was really fun. I really enjoyed this one.

Eddie Sanchez (52:30):
So what do you have for us next month?

Rodney Crouther (52:32):
Next month we're going to be talking about community care after the pandemic, particularly with nurses and our point of service caregivers.

Eddie Sanchez (52:39):
A very spooky Halloween to all of our listeners, and we'll see you next time. This podcast is a production of the Division of Marketing and Communications at Texas State University. Podcasts appearing on the Texas State Podcast Network represent the views of the host and guest and not of Texas State University.